Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

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Nahar
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Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#1 Post by Nahar » 29 Sep 2010 03:15

I've been wondering...
Songs like Valkyries, but it goes to several others as well - Is Hansi just using this as a general subject and tells about it, just some scene or concept he's presenting in the lyrics (Heroes going to Valhalla, in this case)?

I have a feeling it can't be right. I think it's trying, quite subtly, to show some absurdity. "And terror will now rule these lands"...
In Battlefield, for example, it was much clearer and not this subtle (although well done I believe).
Maybe Valkyries is actually hinting about nowadays - not that different than the idea of virgins in heaven for Shahids..

I had such thoughts also about Sacred Worlds ("War, it's now or never"?..) and Control the Divine, but it can also go loosely to other songs.

What do you think - is there hidden (or not that hidden) criticism in the songs? Did you notice it?..
"As darkness came it brought along silence.
Yet silence also bears madness.
Silence surrounds me - a deathly silence"...

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#2 Post by sharpened_graphite » 29 Sep 2010 03:36

This is a curious interpretation of Valkyries. The full lyrics, I believe are "soon it will be over, he'll be the one we'll weave in, and terror will now rule these lands". Bascially Valkyries "weaving" a warrior's fate into the weft of battle and in consequence (either of his death or victory, as they decide) terror rules the lands. Also, the valkyries revel in battle, so terror and chaos is something they (in a way) welcome, or at the very least, ever attend upon. So I don't think there's an absurdity there, since the Valkyries are not strictly "good" or "bad" in a moral sense, they represent battle with all it entails (not only valour and courage, but also horror and death).

I wouldn't say there's much "hidden" criticism in either Sacred Worlds or Control the Divine, since their topics are very specific and the themes umambigously presented.

However, I wonder just how critical of St. Paul is "The Edge"? Whether "Punishment Divine" adresses Hansi's personal disagreement with Nietzsche? And who should welcome the abscence of gods more, Agammemnon or Cassandra? And who of them exactly ends up "under the ice"?

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#3 Post by bestpike » 29 Sep 2010 04:03

I have observed up to a point that Hansi likes to use poetic phrases in his songs without a specific solid meaning. I don't know if he had something in mind such as criticism writing those or he just wants to fill the lyrics lines though. But I think more often than not it's the latter. When he doesn't have something specific to write, he just uses something a little bit general, and leaves it open for interpretation. Or, in other cases there maybe is indeed some hidden meaning when he writes these things.
Now I'm riding through the air
Going to where no one dares
On the way I cross the line forevermore.
For once in life, I do not care
Nothing matters, now I dare
On the ride I'll cross the line
Forever to be free

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#4 Post by Led Guardian » 29 Sep 2010 04:05

Somewhere he said that Control the Divine was critical of unquestioned authority, and encouraging people to always question.
'Nowhere has this renunciation of man's transience been more joyous or uplifting than in the medium of airport carpets.'

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#5 Post by TraneDeracs » 29 Sep 2010 05:05

Led Guardian wrote:Somewhere he said that Control the Divine was critical of unquestioned authority, and encouraging people to always question.
It's based off of Paradise Lost, so it should be.

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#6 Post by Led Guardian » 29 Sep 2010 05:25

TraneDeracs wrote:
Led Guardian wrote:Somewhere he said that Control the Divine was critical of unquestioned authority, and encouraging people to always question.
It's based off of Paradise Lost, so it should be.
Paradise Lost wasn't making that point though. John Milton was writing it as a Christian work. However, some critics suggest that he was subconsciously sympathetic to Satan, as he writes him as kind of a tragic hero.
'Nowhere has this renunciation of man's transience been more joyous or uplifting than in the medium of airport carpets.'

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#7 Post by Nahar » 29 Sep 2010 13:14

You might say, for (another) example, that And Then There Was Silence is also a general song about the Illiad. But I clearly remember Hansi stating somewhere he wanted to use the Illiad for an anti-war song.
In general I think Hansi is quite a pacifist and wouldn't like to present fighting, especially that made for glory or out of unneeded hatred, in a positive way, or even a neutral way. I think Battlefield and Turn the Page are clear examples for what Hansi thinks of such fighting.

That was why I started wondering at phrases like "War, it's now or never, we shall stand together" and "All glory to the brave". I know Hansi often wants to show different point of views and can be quite neutral in that aspect, not preferring any side clearly, but I seriously doubt that's simply the case with such songs where war and fighting is seen as something necessary and maybe even good.
I don't know the game Sacred II, but looking more at the lyrics I find "There is war at hand - The system's failing" saying the war comes from some system failure, and the thing that I don't really understand is the "I'm coming home" part, which sounds very positive, and the connection to the war is not very clear... (Maybe it's some exile coming back to fight for his homeland?)

I recall Hansi making fun at his older lyrics, and especially Valhalla. Saying it's immature and stuff, and that also makes it hard for me to accept the idea that nowadays he would write lyrics just describing something (although in a more poetic way than in the past) without some deeper idea.
In Valkyries he says "When the battle is lost", and even this simple line might have several meanings - first thing to wonder about, I think, is why is the battle lost? the winning side is also likely to have casualties that can go to Valhalla. From that I gather that either he means the personal battle for life is lost, or a battle is not 'ended' or 'won' but it's generally 'lost' as both sides could have found more peaceful ways to resolve things and avoid battle. All in all, it implies something negative.

"And terror will rule these lands"...
The full lyrics, I believe are "soon it will be over, he'll be the one we'll weave in, and terror will now rule these lands". Bascially Valkyries "weaving" a warrior's fate into the weft of battle and in consequence (either of his death or victory, as they decide) terror rules the lands. Also, the valkyries revel in battle, so terror and chaos is something they (in a way) welcome, or at the very least, ever attend upon. So I don't think there's an absurdity there, since the Valkyries are not strictly "good" or "bad" in a moral sense, they represent battle with all it entails (not only valour and courage, but also horror and death).

I don't think Hansi comes to say the Valkyries are immoral by themselves, but that perhaps the idea of their existence is what's wrong - the idea that dying in battle will lead you to eternal glory and stuff, thus encouraging this terror. Terror can't be seen as a good thing, and the idea that it's the conclusion of the song (in a way) doesn't mean it's simply something that goes along with Valkyries and has no further importance or meaning. I'm quite convinced that there's criticism here...


Now, about Control the Divine...
I suspected criticism here mainly cause I don't fully understand the chorus
"How can we take it away
From someone who has no right?
No right to control the divine"

Take what away? from God or from Satan?
I didn't read Paradise Lost...

I guess most of the song is from the evil side's point of view, and it shows the logic behind it, that's why I thought it might have criticism towards this logic, and that it's not just presenting it to the listener objectively, but I don't really know...
"As darkness came it brought along silence.
Yet silence also bears madness.
Silence surrounds me - a deathly silence"...

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#8 Post by Orodaran » 29 Sep 2010 13:39

Interesting theme of discussion, but about the lyrics of Sacred Worlds, I'd say to not look THAT deep into it - it's about a GAME :wink: not that a game can't be used as a metaphor for something else or to pass a more serious message, but really, it's a song about a game.
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#9 Post by ent » 29 Sep 2010 14:09

CTD song and its chorus, the more we have the logic that God speaks, but I really do not understand the male chorus of concerns.
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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#10 Post by hoggroth02 » 29 Sep 2010 15:00

I think Hansi has become one of the best lyric writer of this decade. Hansi has never done easy bookreport lyrics. His approach may even kill him one day. He reads relentlessly then processes and filters myth, legend, scifi, horror, war and finds the humanity and emotions from very difficult sources. He then mixes to that the whole bands feeling to the material he is writing about and keeps current with world news and events. He then has to keep it lyrical and energetic with the vocal style he sings with. It's got to be like balancing an elephant on one toenail while balancing on jackhammer :twisted: :
Hansi will always write in ways that keeps us wondering how did he come up with this music gold (and or what the f*#@ is he singing about!?!) :twisted:
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains. The stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#11 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 29 Sep 2010 17:56

I read the OP's post three times and I still can't figure out what his point is. Now what exactly is wrong with the lyrics?
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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#12 Post by Orodaran » 29 Sep 2010 18:02

He meant that Hansi is the one criticising this or that subject when writing his lyrics.
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#13 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 29 Sep 2010 18:52

Well, he did that before. And regarding the lyrics of Valkyries, I honestly don't see what's wrong with it. The part of terror ruling the lands seems to be descriptive at most. It makes sense in a song describing leaving Midgard (wich is destined to be destroyed in the Ragnarok) bd traveling to Asgard.
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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#14 Post by Led Guardian » 29 Sep 2010 20:33

On CtD:
Phil: What would you say are your favorite tracks off the album?

Hansi: My favorite track definitely would be "Wheel of Time" because of the Oriental approach and the perfect synergy in between band and orchestra. I would also point out "Control the Divine" because it has a very strong lyrical topic inspired by Milton's "Paradise Lost". I deal with a simple question why… questioning in general is something religion does not like… the divisions in charge of do not like.
So I'd say he's got some sympathy for the devil. :wink:

I'm pretty the sure the chorus can be interpreted like this:
Satan and the other rebelling angels are wondering how they can take power back from Man, saying that humans don't have the right to "control the divine" (angels). The line "Wherefore he's greater than I?" is either talking about god or Man. I think he's talking about Man, asking why Man is better than he is.
'Nowhere has this renunciation of man's transience been more joyous or uplifting than in the medium of airport carpets.'

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#15 Post by Nahar » 29 Sep 2010 21:40

Led Guardian wrote:On CtD:
Phil: What would you say are your favorite tracks off the album?

Hansi: My favorite track definitely would be "Wheel of Time" because of the Oriental approach and the perfect synergy in between band and orchestra. I would also point out "Control the Divine" because it has a very strong lyrical topic inspired by Milton's "Paradise Lost". I deal with a simple question why… questioning in general is something religion does not like… the divisions in charge of do not like.
So I'd say he's got some sympathy for the devil. :wink:

I'm pretty the sure the chorus can be interpreted like this:
Satan and the other rebelling angels are wondering how they can take power back from Man, saying that humans don't have the right to "control the divine" (angels). The line "Wherefore he's greater than I?" is either talking about god or Man. I think he's talking about Man, asking why Man is better than he is.
hmm.. I see. Thanks!
Since I didn't really know the story this idea eluded me. But it makes sense..


Again about Valkyries..
It's hard for me to accept (and indeed I don't really accept it) that Blind Guardian will have a song that all that it says is that a warrior is expecting Valhalla, Odin and the Valkyries that will take him there once he died gloriously in a bloody battle, and that his fellow warriors are drinking for him. That's more like plain Power Metal stuff, or Manowar or something (don't know them really well, so don't catch me on my word please, just seems fitting with their album covers and things I've heard).
I'm quite sure, that this aspect exists in the song, but not that simply...
Can you give me another Blind Guardian song that is as narrow as what I just described?
"As darkness came it brought along silence.
Yet silence also bears madness.
Silence surrounds me - a deathly silence"...

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#16 Post by Orodaran » 29 Sep 2010 21:41

Well, the lyrics about a subject that has been done and redone and beaten to death over and over again are tasteful and not corny or cheesy. What more do you expect from a band that talks about videogames, hobbits and dragons anyway? :P :wink:
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

----------------------
BG news (if you're lazy to check the site) :: You're on Facebook? Look at my photos from concerts, travels and more :: Oh, and since you're at it, check my photos also on 500px

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#17 Post by Avelar » 30 Sep 2010 08:20

I have an impression that Hansi implicitly criticizes an addiction to video games in Sacred Worlds. Knowing that he always underlines his antipathy to computer games in interviews, it is quiet possible. Interesting how Andre and Marcus take this, if it's true.
Just keep in mind, this world is sacred.

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#18 Post by bestpike » 30 Sep 2010 09:48

Avelar wrote:I have an impression that Hansi implicitly criticizes an addiction to video games in Sacred Worlds. Knowing that he always underlines his antipathy to computer games in interviews, it is quiet possible. Interesting how Andre and Marcus take this, if it's true.
It seems to me very rude if this is true. After all they got paid by the game company to write this song :P.
Now I'm riding through the air
Going to where no one dares
On the way I cross the line forevermore.
For once in life, I do not care
Nothing matters, now I dare
On the ride I'll cross the line
Forever to be free

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#19 Post by Avelar » 30 Sep 2010 11:16

This is why Hansi made it cunningly and delicately :wink: The lyrics in Sacred Worlds make sense to me only if I see them from a video games critic's point of view.
Just keep in mind, this world is sacred.

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#20 Post by Balor » 02 Oct 2010 13:51

Avelar wrote:This is why Hansi made it cunningly and delicately :wink: The lyrics in Sacred Worlds make sense to me only if I see them from a video games critic's point of view.
After playing a bit of the game, and reading some (I say some because I wouldn't call myself an expert) of the lore, I'd say the lyrics are pretty straightforward and tells the story about what happens in the game :)

First post from me btw!

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#21 Post by Avelar » 02 Oct 2010 14:16

Sorry then :oops: I haven't played Sacred, but hopefully will do this someday.

Welcome to the forum btw!
Just keep in mind, this world is sacred.

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#22 Post by Balor » 02 Oct 2010 14:21

I failed to point it out in my last post, but I love different interpretations of songs. I know some songs from ATITM that I completely turn around and make all about myself or any random fiction that comes to my mind, even though I know they are about this or that :D

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#23 Post by Avelar » 02 Oct 2010 14:29

Balor wrote:completely turn around and make all about myself or any random fiction that comes to my mind, even though I know they are about this or that :D
I like to do that as well! Song usually becomes very intimate after that.
Just keep in mind, this world is sacred.

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#24 Post by Nahar » 02 Oct 2010 14:40

Balor wrote:
Avelar wrote:This is why Hansi made it cunningly and delicately :wink: The lyrics in Sacred Worlds make sense to me only if I see them from a video games critic's point of view.
After playing a bit of the game, and reading some (I say some because I wouldn't call myself an expert) of the lore, I'd say the lyrics are pretty straightforward and tells the story about what happens in the game :)

First post from me btw!

Welcome!

Could you say in general what's the story?
What points does Hansi emphasize in the song?
"As darkness came it brought along silence.
Yet silence also bears madness.
Silence surrounds me - a deathly silence"...

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#25 Post by Balor » 02 Oct 2010 15:06

Ok, the official backstory can be read here: http://www.sacred2.com/en/the-game/story.html.
Tbh, I didn't finish the game, so I can't really say if there is a ritual that failed which caused the cataclysmic event that was told to have happened in the first Sacred. Can't find any official backstory from the first game, but I did finish it, but the end doesn't matter here. What matters is that there was a cataclysmic even which shattered the world. I guess, since I never finished Sacred 2, that Hansi refers to this in "the ritual failed". I really wish I had been playing the game right now and not 8 months ago, because I can't give any valid information regarding the lyrics.

Would be awesome if a Sacred nerd would come along and either prove me wrong or save me :)

Edit: I sense that my discussing skills are rapidly declining after a few beers, and what I have written doesn't actually help me prove my point, but whatever :)

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#26 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 02 Oct 2010 18:56

Avelar wrote:I have an impression that Hansi implicitly criticizes an addiction to video games in Sacred Worlds. Knowing that he always underlines his antipathy to computer games in interviews, it is quiet possible.
I never read an interview in which Hansi says that he dislikes videogames, I only read that he merely doesn't play them. Do you have a source where Hansi actually says he dislikes them?
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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#27 Post by Avelar » 02 Oct 2010 20:12

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:I never read an interview in which Hansi says that he dislikes videogames
So do I. But he obviously doesn't like it either. Or is it just my impression?
Just keep in mind, this world is sacred.

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#28 Post by Balor » 02 Oct 2010 20:45

Maybe he just doesn't find pleasure in playing them?

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#29 Post by Avelar » 02 Oct 2010 20:54

Strange man, isn't he? :wink:
Just keep in mind, this world is sacred.

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Re: Criticism in AtEoT lyrics

#30 Post by Balor » 02 Oct 2010 23:52

Strange indeed!

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