Stupid nostalgia

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Edain
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Stupid nostalgia

#1 Post by Edain » 02 Aug 2010 21:43

Now I've read hundreds of reviews and although most of them give good to excellent grades I've stumbled hundreds of times over this one sentence "Very good songs but not as good as the classics like [fill in any IFTOS-song] who stuck in the ear after the first spin".

Am I just mistaken or are those statements nothing more than nostalgia that completely block the view for new, good music? Am I the only one who thinks that it's hardly possible, not even for the "classic" albums of any band, that all those songs just stick in your mind at once because they're so good? Isn't it much more likely that in those good ol' days there were fewer good Metal bands, fewer Metal at all and therefore a new album of a good band was just more important and the CDs stayed in your player much longer? C'mon, the chorus of Sacred Worlds isn't less catchy than the chorus of Imaginations - it's just not part of your youth when you were a wild metalhead.

Am I the only one who thinks so?
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#2 Post by Arwen Arianna » 02 Aug 2010 21:48

I think you're right...
but then again I think the later albums are a zillion times better than the early ones... :roll:
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#3 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 02 Aug 2010 21:50

No, you're definately not the only one. I've always found that longing for the "good old classics" a curse. No band should ever be asked to copy themselves.
Indeed I think that back in those days you would indeed spend more time listening to cd's due to the lack of others to listen to. And there is no way that i buy that people just got totally into them in 1 spin, even in those days. The albums that you could like or dislike after 1 spin, are simply not the classics of today.

But in 15 years people will consider ANATO and ATITM their classics. Nostalgia is a very big factor in that.

And, I too consider the last cd's generally the better ones
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#4 Post by Edain » 02 Aug 2010 21:52

And, I too consider the last cd's generally the better ones
but then again I think the later albums are a zillion times better than the early ones... :roll:
They are a zillion times better. Playing 5 powerchords in different speedpatterns is not complex or keeping my interest alive for more than 10 minutes. :roll:

Edit:
Ah, and to write something less provocative, but on-topic: I just read an Amazon-review where the reviewer called Tanelorn (into the void) a "uninspired remake of Quest for Tanelorn" - c'mon, this guy hasn't even listened to the album. :shock:
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#5 Post by Energokinetic » 02 Aug 2010 21:56

Arwen Arianna wrote:I think you're right...
but then again I think the later albums are a zillion times better than the early ones... :roll:
I like the older albums more but i love ATEOT. ANATO and ATiTM were somewhat failures for me, surely there are thousands who love them but i don't, they are waaaaaaay out of my style.

EDIT: And you can't say it's cause of nostalgia because I've only been listening to BG for 1.5 years
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#6 Post by Orodaran » 02 Aug 2010 21:57

Well, it's a psychological factor that involves any band, really; and it works not only for music, but also for many memories of life in general... what came before will always have an advantage on what came after, because there's more time to get used to it and be stuck with it and love it.

Now, Blind Guardian belong to those kind of bands that evolve often with every album, but even if their sound would have remained more or less the same, still nothing could have beaten Imaginations and Nightfall anyway; this works especially for the "old" fans, those who became fans when Imaginations was their last album or even SFB, and the first memories of a band when, as you said, were a "wild metalhead" can't be beaten by any masterpiece.

Anyway, I'm talking about the pure psyhcological aspect of it all - everyone has different tastes, so someone may find that the old songs are *actually* better songs than the new ones. For sure there's no denying that BG are better *musicians* now than 20 years ago - everyone improve with age, for example if we look only at the mere songwriting and song composition factor alone, we could say that And then there was Silence is a better musical effort than anything before Nightfall, then again not entering into the realm of everyone's tastes.

Musicians grow older and become better at what they do, and there's no denying that, as I said, the memory of what came before will never, EVER be able to be beaten by any masterpiece. Then there's a whole endless debate to start on the actual quality of the newer songs but I'm not gonna get into that, everyone like or doesn't like the new songs according to their new tastes :wink:

But still, I'm sure there will be *nobody* claiming this album as their best one *ever*, not even the most hardcore lovers of the album - and again, this works for every band, can you think of many bands whose acclaimed masterpiece came later in their carrer? apart from Painkiller from Judas Priest, I can't think of any other example. And I can't imagine anyone, as much as they love BG's new direction, having one of the 2000's records as their favorite BG album... simply because the "favorite" thing sticks in your head in the most emotional moment of your experience with the band (any band) and no musical accomplishment will ever top that.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#7 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 02 Aug 2010 22:04

that is a good elaborate way of agreeing ;)
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#8 Post by Edain » 02 Aug 2010 22:18

Very wise words, I can agree with all of them. I think it's just the musician in me who finds it quite frustrating that people call some five-chord-song (which could have been written by anyone, because it's so simple) "best song ever" while naming a song the artist worked on for hours, days, months, putting all his passion and knowledge inside "Nice, but boring". It's just not fair. :wink: (still I don't want to say, that simple songs are bad songs - taste can never be objective and therefore everyone is right with his taste as long as he doesn't say "Blink 182 are better musicians than Mozart was!!!")

But I seem to be the exception from the rule as my favorite albums are Opera and Twist. Nightfall and Imaginations brought me into the world of Metal, but the latter albums just made everything better. I even think that ATEOT might become my favorite album soon - it just made everything right: it's got the harshness and the energy of older stuff but still has interesting new ideas and elements. :)
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#9 Post by Maglor's Fate » 02 Aug 2010 22:21

Orodaran wrote:Well, it's a psychological factor that involves any band, really; and it works not only for music, but also for many memories of life in general... what came before will always have an advantage on what came after, because there's more time to get used to it and be stuck with it and love it.

Now, Blind Guardian belong to those kind of bands that evolve often with every album, but even if their sound would have remained more or less the same, still nothing could have beaten Imaginations and Nightfall anyway; this works especially for the "old" fans, those who became fans when Imaginations was their last album or even SFB, and the first memories of a band when, as you said, were a "wild metalhead" can't be beaten by any masterpiece.

Anyway, I'm talking about the pure psyhcological aspect of it all - everyone has different tastes, so someone may find that the old songs are *actually* better songs than the new ones. For sure there's no denying that BG are better *musicians* now than 20 years ago - everyone improve with age, for example if we look only at the mere songwriting and song composition factor alone, we could say that And then there was Silence is a better musical effort than anything before Nightfall, then again not entering into the realm of everyone's tastes.

Musicians grow older and become better at what they do, and there's no denying that, as I said, the memory of what came before will never, EVER be able to be beaten by any masterpiece. Then there's a whole endless debate to start on the actual quality of the newer songs but I'm not gonna get into that, everyone like or doesn't like the new songs according to their new tastes :wink:

But still, I'm sure there will be *nobody* claiming this album as their best one *ever*, not even the most hardcore lovers of the album - and again, this works for every band, can you think of many bands whose acclaimed masterpiece came later in their carrer? apart from Painkiller from Judas Priest, I can't think of any other example. And I can't imagine anyone, as much as they love BG's new direction, having one of the 2000's records as their favorite BG album... simply because the "favorite" thing sticks in your head in the most emotional moment of your experience with the band (any band) and no musical accomplishment will ever top that.
Wise words by oro. It's always the same thing with a new album.
In the case of BG i think that there were complaints even from the imaginations era (i did not know them back then) but when nime was released and i was into them already, none of my mates liked it. The magazine i was reading back then wrote a bad review for the album. And i was a bit confused did not get it at first. And today it is considered as their "golden era",,or something like that.Same with with the next albums.Only after some years you can look back and see what an album means to you. There people that like only the first two albums.
Then there is the musical part. As for myself I obviously agree that the new albums are far more musically better, better musicianship, better orchestrations, better productions, but i consider Tales my all time favourite cause it was the first one i heard from them, it's something very special for me, magic moments back then, but i would not -by no means- say that it is their best. (NIME and ANATO are the best :wink: )

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#10 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 02 Aug 2010 22:23

With BG it's more of a technicality... The older albums actually are better than the things they are putting out right now. The new album is great and ATITM was okay too, it's just at times they become complex for complexity's sake. There's no song on the new album that could get the same status as Time Stands Still of A Past And Future Secret, no name a few.

It's still very listenable, but not something that will be remembered in 10, 15 years time as a landmark in heavy metal.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#11 Post by Orodaran » 02 Aug 2010 22:26

Maglor's Fate wrote:In the case of BG i think that there were complaints even from the imaginations era (i did not know them back then) but when nime was released and i was into them already, none of my mates liked it.
Andrè in an interview pointed out, when asked about the criticism of the "later" albums, that every album back in the day was criticized: Bright Eyes was too poppy, Nightfall had those weird spoken parts etc etc.... so every album, even included the ones everyone by now call their best ones, got their part of slack when they were the last thing released...
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#12 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 02 Aug 2010 22:29

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:With BG it's more of a technicality... The older albums actually are better than the things they are putting out right now. The new album is great and ATITM was okay too, it's just at times they become complex for complexity's sake. There's no song on the new album that could get the same status as Time Stands Still of A Past And Future Secret, no name a few.

It's still very listenable, but not something that will be remembered in 10, 15 years time as a landmark in heavy metal
I disagree, First of all because I don't see BG as an extremely complex band, and I really don't see their music as complex for complexity's sake.
Furthermore I think that the last albums each have made a huge impact on the heavy/power metal genres. They have attracted many new listeners to the metal music. Although the full extent of these effects won't really be visible for another couple of years, I'm dead certain that they will have had effect.
Edain wrote: it just made everything right: it's got the harshness and the energy of older stuff but still has interesting new ideas and elements.
That is exactly my thought.. Especially when everybody was proclaiming the "return to the roots" I got rather scared, fearing a rather boring thrashy album, without the modern elements that I love so much. But, of course, the bards are better than that..
I'm proven wrong in the best way possible.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#13 Post by Verruckter » 02 Aug 2010 22:31

It's all a matter of fucking opinion anyway. You can't say objectively that something is better than something else, at least not in art. People try to hold on to the memories they had while listening to IFTOS and transpose them on the newer albums... but that just doesn't work.

I started listening to BG at the time ATITM came out, and I still think ANATO is the best album out of them all.. But I do agree it's hard to listen to a new album without trying to get the same kick as you did before. But you can't, it doesn't work.

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#14 Post by Andreas » 02 Aug 2010 22:40

My first two albums were actually NiME and ANATO. It was because of these albums that I got into Blind Guardian, not because IFTOS or SFB, the two albums I bought after that because I thought "hey BG is actually pretty awesome". So I'm happy they're still doing their nowadays stuff

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#15 Post by Orodaran » 02 Aug 2010 22:40

Verruckter wrote:You can't say objectively that something is better than something else, at least not in art.
Well, objectively, what shows better BG's skills as musicians, composers and songwriters: And then there was Silence, or Majesty? :wink:
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
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A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#16 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 02 Aug 2010 22:41

Orodaran wrote:
Verruckter wrote:You can't say objectively that something is better than something else, at least not in art.
Well, objectively, what shows better BG's skills as musicians, composers and songwriters: And then there was Silence, or Majesty? :wink:
Wheel of Time ;)
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#17 Post by Alija Vila » 02 Aug 2010 22:42

Gandalf de Grijze wrote:
Orodaran wrote:
Verruckter wrote:You can't say objectively that something is better than something else, at least not in art.
Well, objectively, what shows better BG's skills as musicians, composers and songwriters: And then there was Silence, or Majesty? :wink:
Wheel of Time ;)
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#18 Post by Maglor's Fate » 02 Aug 2010 22:43

Gandalf de Grijze wrote:
Orodaran wrote:
Verruckter wrote:You can't say objectively that something is better than something else, at least not in art.
Well, objectively, what shows better BG's skills as musicians, composers and songwriters: And then there was Silence, or Majesty? :wink:
Wheel of Time ;)
Fast to Madness :wink:

haha sorry another joke
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#19 Post by Alija Vila » 02 Aug 2010 22:45

Maglor's Fate wrote:
Gandalf de Grijze wrote:
Orodaran wrote:
Well, objectively, what shows better BG's skills as musicians, composers and songwriters: And then there was Silence, or Majesty? :wink:
Wheel of Time ;)
Fast to Madness :wink:
Hehe, we think quite similar.

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#20 Post by Maglor's Fate » 02 Aug 2010 22:55

Orodaran wrote:
Verruckter wrote:You can't say objectively that something is better than something else, at least not in art.
Well, objectively, what shows better BG's skills as musicians, composers and songwriters: And then there was Silence, or Majesty? :wink:
"Objectively" i can answer only for the musicianship, as for composing and songwriting i don't think that there are some standard rules you must follow to judge if the new stuff's "better". Don't know maybe i'm wrong.Ok the new, it's more complex, more smart if you want, more of a "hey what happened now?" when a new theme comes out of nowhere.
But in the end I think the emotional factor that enters at that point, in the end it is a mix of some sounds you hear and not some notes on a paper.

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#21 Post by Edain » 02 Aug 2010 22:57

I disagree, First of all because I don't see BG as an extremely complex band, and I really don't see their music as complex for complexity's sake.
Another point I really like to, erm, point out: Even modern Blind Guardian isn't "extremely" complex - saying something like this just proves that most Metal listeners aren't accustomed to music that requires more than a little bit attention. Meshuggah is somehow complex when it comes to rhythms, same goes for much Jazz and Jazz-influenced styles. Classical music is really complex considering the melodical aspects.

I don't want to say, Blind Guardian aren't complex - heck, I'm one of their greatest fans - but not even their last outputs, including Opera, are uber-complex like many old fans and reviewers say. They just went beyond the "4/4, Powerchords and some lead melodies"-formula that makes up 98 % of all Metal.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#22 Post by Maglor's Fate » 02 Aug 2010 23:17

Edain wrote:
I don't want to say, Blind Guardian aren't complex - heck, I'm one of their greatest fans -
Complexity is not always necessary in a piece of music to be considered good. I think BG have established a nice balance between complexity and simplicity.

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#23 Post by Edain » 02 Aug 2010 23:26

That's what I meant why I'm one of their greatest fans. Their songs don't get boring because they are really varied and always bring in new ideas but they still remain accessible, transport the emotions directly. :)
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#24 Post by Verruckter » 03 Aug 2010 07:00

Variety is a form of complexity, you know. I counted in AVITD at least 9 different vocal melodies plus all the other riffs/solos.. A standard Rhapsody song has 3 vocal melodies and 4 or 5 guitar/keyboard riffs...

Ok bad example, but BG's music is somewhat complex, I'd say

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#25 Post by bestpike » 03 Aug 2010 08:00

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:With BG it's more of a technicality... The older albums actually are better than the things they are putting out right now. The new album is great and ATITM was okay too, it's just at times they become complex for complexity's sake. There's no song on the new album that could get the same status as Time Stands Still of A Past And Future Secret, no name a few.

It's still very listenable, but not something that will be remembered in 10, 15 years time as a landmark in heavy metal.
Blind Guardian aren't very famous anyway. It's tricky music to get into, its for the few. I also think that Blind Guardian are much more complex than the majority of the power metal scene, but certainly not a single song is complex for complexity's sake, something I can't say for Dream Theater. I guess there are people that totally see rhyme and reason in the whole Dream Theater discography, but I'm not one of them.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#26 Post by Rhalph » 03 Aug 2010 08:14

I remember a theory saying that the album you prefer for a band is the first one you'd hear.
It's true for me - it was NiME, and it's still the one I prefer.
I only recently (3-4 years ago) listened to IFtOS and while I love it, it took me at least 2 years to really love it. It was surely not a "stuck in the ear after the first spin" (except for A Past and Future Secret)

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#27 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 03 Aug 2010 10:12

I disagree, First of all because I don't see BG as an extremely complex band, and I really don't see their music as complex for complexity's sake.
Furthermore I think that the last albums each have made a huge impact on the heavy/power metal genres. They have attracted many new listeners to the metal music. Although the full extent of these effects won't really be visible for another couple of years, I'm dead certain that they will have had effect.
I respectfully disagree. Although the new album is artistically great I don't see it as genre-defining classic. Recent albums surely expanded the audience of the band, but this expansion has as much to do with the consistency of the band (every 4 years a new album and tour) which ensures new people will get to know about the band through word of mouth. So in a way the band is expanding because they're still in the picture, and not necessarily because of the quality of the albums. At this point in their career they can release a mediocre album and still find some new ears because the older fans will still see them live and invite their younger friends to come along (some might argue this actually happened with ATITM).

So to say that the new album has a 'huge impact' goes too far. A hint of an album having a huge impact is in my eyes that it attracts a lot of attention from people who wouldn't normally listen to this particular branch of metal. That was certainly the case with NIME, which created a large "check this out dude, this band did something cool"-buzz amongst people who didn't normally listen to metal. I don't see that happening with this one.

If BG wanted to become legendary they should have quite after the BGOA in 2003 at the peak of their career. But they didn't, and I am glad for it. So BG anno 2010 is what it is: fan service, with a new album every couple of years as well as a load of new shirts, some tourdates and the inevitable festivaltrek next year. And ATEOT is an album that fits in with Crucible Of Men (Iced Earth), Poets And Madmen (Savatage), Death Magnetic (Metallica), Nostradamus (Priest), Rabbit Don't Come Easy (Helloween), To The Metal (Gamma Ray) and Sting in the Tail (Scorpions): a long line of albums that the fans will love, but the world will just wave at as they pass by.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#28 Post by bestpike » 03 Aug 2010 10:28

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
I disagree, First of all because I don't see BG as an extremely complex band, and I really don't see their music as complex for complexity's sake.
Furthermore I think that the last albums each have made a huge impact on the heavy/power metal genres. They have attracted many new listeners to the metal music. Although the full extent of these effects won't really be visible for another couple of years, I'm dead certain that they will have had effect.
I respectfully disagree. Although the new album is artistically great I don't see it as genre-defining classic. Recent albums surely expanded the audience of the band, but this expansion has as much to do with the consistency of the band (every 4 years a new album and tour) which ensures new people will get to know about the band through word of mouth. So in a way the band is expanding because they're still in the picture, and not necessarily because of the quality of the albums. At this point in their career they can release a mediocre album and still find some new ears because the older fans will still see them live and invite their younger friends to come along (some might argue this actually happened with ATITM).

So to say that the new album has a 'huge impact' goes too far. A hint of an album having a huge impact is in my eyes that it attracts a lot of attention from people who wouldn't normally listen to this particular branch of metal. That was certainly the case with NIME, which created a large "check this out dude, this band did something cool"-buzz amongst people who didn't normally listen to metal. I don't see that happening with this one.

If BG wanted to become legendary they should have quite after the BGOA in 2003 at the peak of their career. But they didn't, and I am glad for it. So BG anno 2010 is what it is: fan service, with a new album every couple of years as well as a load of new shirts, some tourdates and the inevitable festivaltrek next year. And ATEOT is an album that fits in with Crucible Of Men (Iced Earth), Poets And Madmen (Savatage), Death Magnetic (Metallica), Nostradamus (Priest), Rabbit Don't Come Easy (Helloween), To The Metal (Gamma Ray) and Sting in the Tail (Scorpions): a long line of albums that the fans will love, but the world will just wave at as they pass by.
If Blind Guardian wanted to become legendary they should have quit? What are you talking about, there are legendary bands that just continue to produce albums. You even mentioned some.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#29 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 03 Aug 2010 10:37

What I'm talking about? Easy. One if the first rules of rock and roll is to keep the audience wanting more, and the trick is to stop at the peek of your career, before people are able to say 'yeah this was good, but I've heard them do better'. And as a hiatus limits the band's availability the remainder of what's there - the memory, the music - is bound to be cultivated beyond its original proportions.

Imagine that Iron Maiden had never reunited with Bruce Dickinson (you could also insert Priest, Kiss or Sabbath here) but disbanded instead, they would've been legendary by now, simply because it wouldn't be possible to go out and see them - meaning crummy vhs's and stories from people who would be the only things to go by. And it works with musicians as well. If people like Jimmy Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, James Morrison, Janis Joplin, Chris Oliva, Cliff burton and about a million others hadn't died in their twenties, they wouldn't have had the same elusive status they have now.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#30 Post by bestpike » 03 Aug 2010 10:46

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:What I'm talking about? Easy. One if the first rules of rock and roll is to keep the audience wanting more, and the trick is to stop at the peek of your career, before people are able to say 'yeah this was good, but I've heard them do better'. And as a hiatus limits the band's availability the remainder of what's there - the memory, the music - is bound to be cultivated beyond its original proportions.

Imagine that Iron Maiden had never reunited with Bruce Dickinson (you could also insert Priest, Kiss or Sabbath here) but disbanded instead, they would've been legendary by now, simply because it wouldn't be possible to go out and see them - meaning crummy vhs's and stories from people who would be the only things to go by. And it works with musicians as well. If people like Jimmy Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, James Morrison, Janis Joplin, Chris Oliva, Cliff burton and about a million others hadn't died in their twenties, they wouldn't have had the same elusive status they have now.
Ok first you say that the trick is to stop at the peak of your career, then you mention that if Maiden had never reunited with Dickinson they would have been legendary by now. The last album before the reunion was Virtual XI. So I guess you consider that album the Iron Maiden peak?
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#31 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 03 Aug 2010 10:53

No, that's not what I said and I suspect you are missing the point. You asked me the question what quitting has to do with becoming legendary, and I answered your question by explaining that elusiveness is the way to reach legendary status. The second phrase was meant as an example to underline that statement.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#32 Post by bestpike » 03 Aug 2010 10:59

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:No, that's not what I said and I suspect you are missing the point. You asked me the question what quitting has to do with becoming legendary, and I answered your question by explaining that elusiveness is the way to reach legendary status. The second phrase was meant as an example to underline that statement.
So stopping at your peak has nothing to do with achieving legendary status. Then why did you say "If BG wanted to become legendary they should have quite after the BGOA in 2003 at the peak of their career". Can't they become legendary by stopping after producing 10 albums more?
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#33 Post by risen osiris » 03 Aug 2010 11:11

He is quite obviously talking about how people love to mourn for what they no longer have. Randy Rhoads, Dimebag and Chuck Schuldiner are good examples. We all love a rock n' roll matyr. Dio is the latest that I know of, ofcourse he was already a legend before he died.

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#34 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 03 Aug 2010 11:24

So stopping at your peak has nothing to do with achieving legendary status. Then why did you say "If BG wanted to become legendary they should have quite after the BGOA in 2003 at the peak of their career". Can't they become legendary by stopping after producing 10 albums more?
Of course they can, but chances are smaller. Typically the first 5 albums of a band are remembered fondest and the ones afterwards are mostly gestures to the die-hards. Imagine asking a group of random people to name a couple of albums by ACDC and Motorhead, and chances are you'll mainly hear classic names. And that's not because Motorhead is a bad band now, it just underlines the fact that the first albums usually contain the best material. So yes, BG could still achieve a legendary cultstatus, but they could remembered all the same as a band who jumped the shark when Thomen left.

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#35 Post by bestpike » 03 Aug 2010 11:29

You can be around and legend at the same time, as long as you don't make totally shitty music. Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest are already legendary, they created the foundations of what metal is today. How can you say they aren't because they still make music.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#36 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 03 Aug 2010 11:50

You can be around and legend at the same time, as long as you don't make totally shitty music. Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest are already legendary, they created the foundations of what metal is today. How can you say they aren't because they still make music.
Because simply making music after all those years doesn't necessarily make you a legendary. In fact: it increases the chances you're exposed to people who say you jumped the shark. And although in these particular three cases I won't make an argument against their legendary statuses, there are still people who do. In recent history we had threads about the latest Maiden-material and setlists not being up to certain people's standards, about Rob Halford not being able to sing as high anymore and about Ozzy losing his credibility in the recent years.

In fact I could name you an example involving Ozzy. In my head the man already achieved legendary status for basically creating a musical genre out of thin air, and for releasing a number of classic solo-albums afterwards. I had the opportunity to see him three years ago, and that was a disappointing affair. Not only was the stage-sound terrible, Ozzy wasn't able to sing very well, his old bones didn't allow him to move around the same way he did when he was young, and the reality-show on MTV robbed his stage-personality of any credibility. Having seen that show I actually wish I didn't, because it devaluated my memory of the legend of Ozzy.

In a recent interview Dee Snider told why he wants to quit Twisted Sister in a couple of years: "when you see your favourite band live and they are bad because they're old, it makes you feel old." And Dee Snider, as you know, is always right.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#37 Post by bestpike » 03 Aug 2010 12:06

You saw how Ozzy is today and that devaluated the memory of legend of Ozzy? What does that mean? You like him less now? Could you define what legendary is please? I think you are using a different term than the one in the dictionary.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#38 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 03 Aug 2010 12:33

You saw how Ozzy is today and that devaluated the memory of legend of Ozzy? What does that mean? You like him less now?
What it means is what I wrote: that I wish I never saw Ozzy live that night, which would've meant he would still be the amazing performer I build him up to be in my head based on the old video's. Needless to say, I infinitely prefer that version of Ozzy to the watered-down Ozzy that I saw on stage.
I think you are using a different term than the one in the dictionary.
The definition of the word 'legend' most applicable in this context is "A romanticized or popularized myth of modern times", which says everything really. It's hard to romanticise something that's still as tangible as an artist still touring, especially if said artist pulls off a performance or an album in which the age of said artist shows.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#39 Post by bestpike » 03 Aug 2010 13:24

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
The definition of the word 'legend' most applicable in this context is "A romanticized or popularized myth of modern times", which says everything really. It's hard to romanticise something that's still as tangible as an artist still touring, especially if said artist pulls off a performance or an album in which the age of said artist shows.
Interesting. I didn't think you were using the word legendary with its imaginary myth definition. To me it felt like you were meaning on how famous someone is. Using the word legendary like that for such recent persons and events is kinda unsettling. Kurt Cobain is a myth? Little children make fairy tales about him? Come on. Isn't it too soon for that? It's not like he died 500 years ago.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#40 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 03 Aug 2010 13:35

No, but the timespan has little to do with it. And I don't think it's too soon to call Kurt Cobain a legendary performer. Nirvana once played in a local youthcentre here in 1989, and even though the there were only 90 tickets sold, there were at least 1500 people judging by the amount of people who say they were there. That's saying a lot. The life, music and lyrics of Kurt Cobain still appeal to many people years after he died. Part of this is because he never got into the phase where he went into rehab and came out a born-again Christian with a bier-belly who writes acoustic songs about how great live is when you're sober.

His death at age 27 means that people will remember him at its peak and never get an answer to what more he could've accomplished, which adds to the myth. Now I'm not implying that it's necessarily a good thing he died, but it does help in building up his myth.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#41 Post by bestpike » 03 Aug 2010 13:45

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:No, but the timespan has little to do with it. And I don't think it's too soon to call Kurt Cobain a legendary performer. Nirvana once played in a local youthcentre here in 1989, and even though the there were only 90 tickets sold, there were at least 1500 people judging by the amount of people who say they were there. That's saying a lot. The life, music and lyrics of Kurt Cobain still appeal to many people years after he died. Part of this is because he never got into the phase where he went into rehab and came out a born-again Christian with a bier-belly who writes acoustic songs about how great live is when you're sober.

His death at age 27 means that people will remember him at its peak and never get an answer to what more he could've accomplished, which adds to the myth. Now I'm not implying that it's necessarily a good thing he died, but it does help in building up his myth.
Doesn't being a myth include that people are making up stories about you? That's what I think. There are imaginary stories being told about Kurt Cobain? How can that be, his history is so recent, it hasn't yet been obscured by time.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#42 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 03 Aug 2010 14:08

I think it doesn't have to do with making up stories, it has more to do with glorifying and romanticising the stories that are already there.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#43 Post by Skrymir » 03 Aug 2010 14:13

I heard there once were over 500.000 people singing the Bard's Song. In this state of total harmony, there actually was peace on earth for about 4 Minutes.

That's just ja rumor I've been told, but there might be something true about it!

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#44 Post by bestpike » 03 Aug 2010 14:22

Skrymir wrote:I heard there once were over 500.000 people singing the Bard's Song. In this state of total harmony, there actually was peace on earth for about 4 Minutes.

That's just ja rumor I've been told, but there might be something true about it!
No no, you can't say that yet. Blind Guardian are still alive and making albums. Wait for them to die or disband first.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#45 Post by Skrymir » 03 Aug 2010 14:29

Whatever, Chuck Norris is still alive, too. :mrgreen:

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#46 Post by The Frederick » 03 Aug 2010 18:00

Edain wrote:Edit:
Ah, and to write something less provocative, but on-topic: I just read an Amazon-review where the reviewer called Tanelorn (into the void) a "uninspired remake of Quest for Tanelorn" - c'mon, this guy hasn't even listened to the album. :shock:
How is it even possible to come to that conclusion? They don't sound alike at all. The only similarity is the names and lyrical themes.

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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#47 Post by Evil Peter » 03 Aug 2010 22:27

What short-lived bands can eclipse the magnitude of bands like Iron Maiden, AC/DC, Black Sabbath, The Rolling Stones, KISS etc? These are bands that are almost as far away of the definition of hitting a peak and quitting as you'll get. BG is also not getting less talked about or less idolized as they move on either. ANATO took a while for everyone to get into but nowadays I think it would even give NIME a fight on many polls. ATITM wasn't accepted on that level but one album that doesn't hit the top is not really something you take as a sign of doom if you are rational. Even less so when the initial response to the new album seems very good.

And BG have never ever even had the chance to produce something like the death of Kurt Cobain did so that comparison seems quite pointless. Nirvana came up with the rise of a new genre and had a celebrity death at the peak of a short but very strong period for said genre.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#48 Post by arenamaster » 04 Aug 2010 00:11

Orodaran wrote:But still, I'm sure there will be *nobody* claiming this album as their best one *ever*, not even the most hardcore lovers of the album -
That is, by far, one of the dumbest things I've ever heard on this forum.

'YEP, THE ALBUM CAME OUT LATER THAN SOME OTHERS, LATER IN THEIR CAREER, NO ONE WILL EVER LOVE IT AS THE BEST, NOPE, NOT EVER'

I loved ANATO as my favorite for a long time, and I still do (except for maybe ATEOT), and who are you to tell me I don't? There, I broke your stupid fucking rule.
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#49 Post by Bender B. Rodriguez » 04 Aug 2010 00:20

Orodaran wrote: But still, I'm sure there will be *nobody* claiming this album as their best one *ever*, not even the most hardcore lovers of the album -
except maybe for angry fanboys
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Re: Stupid nostalgia

#50 Post by Led Guardian » 04 Aug 2010 00:43

Rhalph wrote:I remember a theory saying that the album you prefer for a band is the first one you'd hear.
It's true for me - it was NiME, and it's still the one I prefer.
I only recently (3-4 years ago) listened to IFtOS and while I love it, it took me at least 2 years to really love it. It was surely not a "stuck in the ear after the first spin" (except for A Past and Future Secret)
Theory disproved. I heard ATitM first, and my favorite is NiME. :)
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